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I think we should come up with a list of criteria that we can use to define and/or rate a dive bar.
Feel free to add to this list what you think is appropriate.
1. The odor: A strange, unhealthy blend of stale cig smoke, sour beer, ethyl alcohol, body odor, burnt coffee, male urine, vomit, and PINE-SOL (very strong as in a feeble attempt to cover up all of the aforementioned).
2. The bar: Faded and worn down cheap laminated surface. Elbo rest is usually sticky with carved graffitti.
3. The food: Generally not available. When it is, it is usually a rack of stale potato chips and peanuts tackilly displayed behind the bar. A popcorn machine is always cool. A hot dog warming machine is even better. But I give triple bonus points when I see a jar of pickled eggs.
4. Furnishings: Torn up naugahyde and vinyl is the standard. Wobbly barstools and tables that obviously have been tossed around and turned over through the years. I know one place that even uses the old tables and chairs that the KFC next door threw out. Now that's what I call an upgrade. ;)
5. The drinks: Heavy-handed pours at a low price. Otherwise, why the hell would we waste our time there?
Feel free to add to this list what you think is appropriate.
1. The odor: A strange, unhealthy blend of stale cig smoke, sour beer, ethyl alcohol, body odor, burnt coffee, male urine, vomit, and PINE-SOL (very strong as in a feeble attempt to cover up all of the aforementioned).
2. The bar: Faded and worn down cheap laminated surface. Elbo rest is usually sticky with carved graffitti.
3. The food: Generally not available. When it is, it is usually a rack of stale potato chips and peanuts tackilly displayed behind the bar. A popcorn machine is always cool. A hot dog warming machine is even better. But I give triple bonus points when I see a jar of pickled eggs.
4. Furnishings: Torn up naugahyde and vinyl is the standard. Wobbly barstools and tables that obviously have been tossed around and turned over through the years. I know one place that even uses the old tables and chairs that the KFC next door threw out. Now that's what I call an upgrade. ;)
5. The drinks: Heavy-handed pours at a low price. Otherwise, why the hell would we waste our time there?
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Tue, March 8, 2005 - 4:38 PMMust serve PRB or Hams... -
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Wed, March 9, 2005 - 2:14 PMwhat are you a bloodhound? you are telling me you can actually distinguish between the scent of male and female urine? lol guess what, i don't believe you!
I think most of your list goes a bit far... I don't think a bar has to be quite THAT skanky to be a dive!
the sticky bar, the torn upholstery, the cheap, heavy drinks, the smell of stale beer and cigs, yeah... that's gotta be there. but most of the rest of that? urine? vomit? if i could smell those smells in a bar then its, sayonara baby! that's just a bit much
in WA state ALL bars that sell hard liquor must sell food, and not just chips and nuts, but actually food, sandwiches, etc... so that qualification of "no food" doesn't apply to dive bars here
but yes, the must have PBR, Hamms, or some other low rent beer....
and no brand new bar can be a dive... we have one here and it's a bar I absolutely love, but it's been open less than a year, the bar is formica and it's pretty well lit... yet they are advertising as a "dive bar" on line... hmmmmmmmmmmm
oh yes, that reminds me... dive bars must be very dimly lit -
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Wed, March 9, 2005 - 2:15 PMit needn't be a laminated bar top either...
been to some great dives with wooden bars... some of the best -
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Unsu...
Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Wed, March 9, 2005 - 3:53 PMVery true. I have also seen copper sheeting on the surfaces of some of the older bars. But that kind of makes it more vintagy and less divey.
The male urine thing is more of an assumption than a detection. Drunkard men tend to be sloppy and miss the target...thereby marking their drinking territory with their stench. This is the reason that I sneak into the ladies' room and use when I can get away with it. And, believe me, I never leave a trace.
We also should come up with a list of dive bar Juke box standards. I will post more on this later. -
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Wed, March 9, 2005 - 4:55 PMyeah, i like the copper topped bars too...
regardless, if I smell urine and vomit in a bar, i'm outta there... call me a princess, but even I have some limits and piss and vomit are among them... thats just a bit TOO divey for me!
songs in jukebox should include Lynyrd Skynrd "Free Bird"; a mix CD of various oddball tunes... the birthday song, the star-spangled banner, some lee greenwood, the anniverary song, auld lang syne... stuff like that....
okay, i've started it off... -
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Unsu...
Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Thu, March 10, 2005 - 1:35 PMA good dive juke box should have a vast cross-section of different genres of music spanning over several decades.
The jazz genre should include Miles Davis 'Kind of Blue', some Coltrane, Billie Holiday, and some of the big-band stuff like Benny Goodman. There should definately be some swing-jazz selections and some Latin jazz like the Buena Vista Social Club.
The lounge music/crooner selection: Sinatra, Bennett, Ella, etc.
The RnB selection: Marvin Gaye, Barry White, Isley Brothers, Chi-Lites, Delphonics.
Blues selection: Albert King, BB King, SRV, John Lee Hooker, Lightning Hopkins, old Fleetwood Mac (before Lindsey & Stevie)
Rock selection: Deep Purple, Zep, Stones, Rush, Chuch Berry, Beatles, Queen, George Thoroughgood, Yardbirds, Cream....
I could go on and on. A good selection of Surf music is always a bonus to find as well.
The HA-RA bar in SF has a pretty good jukebox. 5 selections for a buck. Most bars give you 4 for $1. Some bars have the newer jukeboxes that are all computerized and in MP3 format. They have thousands of selections but they rip you off at $1 per song. You can buy the song for that price.
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Tue, March 15, 2005 - 5:03 PMI disagree, I think paul hit the nail on the hammer with his descriptions, It made me feel like I was right there at the local watering hole !!!
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Thu, March 10, 2005 - 10:25 AMin L.A. you need to add a few things to the list
hipsters who don't think they are hipsters
at least 10% of young male clientele are writing a script
at least 10% of young female clientele are self describes actresses
a group of people talking about how it used to be more cool
a group of people bemoaning the lack of indie rawk on the jukebox -
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Thu, March 10, 2005 - 11:35 AMnoooooooooooooo everything you listed is what makes a bar NOT a dive bar!
sounds like a place that USED to (maybe) be a dive bar....
its not like riding a bike, so to speak, a bar can be a dive, then become NOT a dive by becoming too scenester-rific
there's a place here that were it in a different neighborhood with a far different clientele would almost certainly be a classic dive... south pacific/tahiti palm fronded ceiling all....
but WAY too many of the "cocainites" go there.. the 24 hour party people in there shag hair cuts, tight jeans and white belts... its scenester/hiptster trendyville....
and no, NO hipsters ever think they are hipsters! well, not most of them anyway!
thats an instant deal breaker... a bar can qualify as a dive in every other way, but if its too trendy, it is automatically disqualified...
which is what you describe here... hipsters, people saying it used to be better (those would be most like the first hipsters to find the place... the ones who forced all the real original regulars out... who were there during the last 5 minutes the place was a cool dive and have some vague memory of that... like how you remember a dream an hour or so after you wake up... hazy... or the things you sort of, but not really, remember from a black out)
what you have described here, my friend, is not the rules for what makes a bar a dive, but for what makes a bar most definately NOT a dive!! (even if it was at one time a legitimate dive)
those places are for people who want to tell themselves and others that they are really slumming it... denial... it's so lovely... lol
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Thu, March 10, 2005 - 1:16 PMYou go Sista Friction!!! I'm with you! I still drink with the old guys at my local dives.
As for juke box standards: at least 1 Frank Sinatra CD, Fleetwood Mac with Rumours, Best of the Doors, both disks, Best of the Rolling Stones, both disks, Harley Davidson Road Songs, both disks, Johnny Cash, Marvin Gay, Al Greene, 1 disco or funk CD (for the humor value), Garth Brooks, some other country guys, some Usher or NOW volume whatever CDs in a vein attempt to get the youth money flowing through the joint, a Janis Joplin album, at least 1 Guns & Roses album, some hair metal and glam rock, and that's all I can remember right now from my local dive juke boxes. (The juke box is my first stop after getting a drink!)
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Unsu...
Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Thu, March 10, 2005 - 1:51 PMAnd so there are Dive Bars and there are Faux Dive Bars. Its usually pretty obvious which on you are in once you walk through the doorway.
A Faux Dive Bar is generally one that used to be a dive bar until some 'genius' bought it and tried to 'fix-it-up' or improve it. The only thing I would do to a dive bar to improve it would be to remove all of the cheezy NASCAR and NFL parafernalia that festoon the walls of some places.
Other than that, remodeling a dive bar erases the character that it took so many years to acquire. It renders the place sterile and bland. -
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Thu, March 10, 2005 - 2:33 PMi agree except i say LEAVE the NASCAR and NFL paraphernalia... in fact, put up MORE racing and football paraphernalia... throw in some MLB, boxing and horse racing paraphernalia while you are at it!
*laughs*
in general, a dive bar should never be "cleaned up" that said, even if NOTHING is changed, not one greasy hair on the bartender's head nor one drop of fresh paint on a wall, if a bar becomes trendy, a hang out for hipsters and scenesters... it's dive status is revoked instantly and forevermore... or at least until the hipsters leave
thats why i disagree with the guy from LA who said "add to the list..." then listed items that make a bar NOT a dive...
at least in the real world I guess things might be different in Hell Lay -
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Unsu...
Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Thu, March 10, 2005 - 3:34 PMAnd a REALLY good dive bar opens before 10am, where undoubtedly, there is at least one regular waiting to come in. And, speaking of, True dive bars should be stocked with at least 75% regulars. -
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Thu, March 10, 2005 - 5:01 PMhow right you are... i used to tend a dive bar... we closed at 2 am... that was the law! and opened again at 8 am, as early as we legally could! -
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Fri, March 11, 2005 - 10:28 AMahhh I remember the good ol' drug-induced raver days, when we'd amuse ourselves until 6:00 am and then go have a beer at some scummy bar....LOVE it!
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Tue, March 15, 2005 - 1:18 PMheh, was kind of joking. Guess you have to be from here to get it. Anyway, the scenesters are always looking for what they feel is authentic because of their abject lack of it. So, some dork with a wallet chain and gas station shirt stumbles upon some dank place and likes it for the cheap, bad beer. Later, when 10 people who look just like him are jammed at the bar he thinks about how cool it is. Later still, when 20 people who look just like him are jammed at the bar and the drinks are a bit more pricey he whinges on about how cool it used to be. -
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Tue, March 15, 2005 - 2:34 PMah yes... but don't judge a book by it's cover.... though its probably accurate about 90% of the time... not every white belt, tight jean wearin' shaggy hair cut havin' guy/gal is scenester and not every scenester wears the above-mentioned items, or a chain wallet....
I like and wear a lot of that stuff, and believe me, I'm no hipster/scenester....
that whole if you try to have style, if you don't dress non-descript you are a lameass hipster is a form of hipsterism itself....
chain wallet? and here I thought LA was ahead of the curve on fashion compared to Seattle!
Gas station shirts and chain wallets are SO hipster circe 1999... nowadays it's white belts, shag hair cuts, tight jeans, t-shirts, etc etc... somewhere between a 70s dirtbag and a 70s glam rock star....
lol but yeah, i hear you on the cool bar take-overs
Hipsters are the new frat boys! *laughs*
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Unsu...
Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Wed, March 16, 2005 - 10:17 AMA true dive bar is a bar that has seen better days (preferably in the 50's), and some of the bartenders can remember them. Daytime regular drinkers are a must (not so many of them can actually remember the bar's heyday, but they drink so hard that they look like they were around for it).
A real dive is so nasty that any infestation of hipsters will move on after a couple of months. A good dive bartender is an asshole to the new people, and you don't get to be a regular until you've been going there for a few years.
The rest is pretty flexible. Well, except for Paul's #5. But even then, it can break that rule and still be a dive - just not one worth going to. -
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Wed, March 16, 2005 - 10:20 AMthere is a bar like that in OB (san diego) and those bartenders are rude to everyone even the regulars!!! and it use to be the greatest thing in the 40's and they have not re-decorated or anything!!! Pretty cool place. ! guy was asking for another drink and the bartender wasn't ready to serve him yet and he was just a tad pushy (not really) and she threw him out! -
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Sat, November 12, 2005 - 1:28 AMAsshole-bartender definitely a dive bar criterion!
Another good one is condom dispensers in the men's bathroom that also dispense novelty sex goodies (glow-in-the-dark condom, nudie picture, or "french tickler" condom... please!).
The most recent dyed-in-the-wool dive bar I went to had a Hell's Angel's chapter meeting the night we met for our Alternating Dive Bar Night (groups.yahoo.com/group/Sac_DiveBars/) and the bartender looked like Dr. Andrew Weil.
That was a good dive bar! We were actually scared to enter... but by the time we left we had bought raffle tickets at the Hell's Angels' little charity auction. We actually won a calculator and a Rite Aid toolkit. I have nothing but love for the Hell's Angels now. They are dive bar supporters and community darlings.
That's what I love about a dive bar! -
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Mon, November 14, 2005 - 2:55 PMOh then the Owl Tree in SF is/was a definite dive. I once saw the owner/bartender kick a guy out for asking him how he was doing.
But they did have my fave jukebox there - I mean how can you beat a jukebox that has Robert Mitchum's calypso album on it?? -
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Mon, November 14, 2005 - 4:20 PMI Love the Owl Tree, but haven't been there in a while....I'm sure it's been invaded by now! -
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Wed, November 16, 2005 - 10:10 AMyou never know WHO you'll see at the owl tree
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Thu, November 17, 2005 - 10:11 AMi visited the owl tree yesterday.
most divelike: bobby and i were the only people there;
least divelike: $4.75 for a hops beverage!!!
i wonder if the two facts might be related. -
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Thu, November 17, 2005 - 10:15 PMi think i was at the owl tree when i was 17. I was with my older brother visiting one of his friends in the tenderloin. We went there because he was pretty confident that i wouldn't get carded. And i didn't. And i looked like i was 17. Random memory i thought i'd share. -
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Tue, November 22, 2005 - 12:19 PMI definitely went there prior to turning 21...no sweat! Those were the days *sigh* :)
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Tue, November 22, 2005 - 12:18 PMWHAT?? 4.75??? shit!
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Fri, November 18, 2005 - 9:22 AMI walked past there last night- i noticed the red walls and all the furniture appointed in fine corinthian leather. And a little barky dog guarding the entrance.
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Fri, November 18, 2005 - 9:57 PMskanky??! Who said Paul's description was skankY?? That's not skanky! that's home sweet home!
oh, and I prefer a few dentally-challenged regulars at my local dive bars!! -
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Re: What Maketh a Dive-Bar?
Sat, November 19, 2005 - 10:15 AMThe intermingled odors of beer, barf, and freshly squeezed limes
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